Relationship between the Five Organs, Trigrams and states of matter

Discussion and ideas concerning the animate (living) realm.
Sun
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Relationship between the Five Organs, Trigrams and states of matter

Post by Sun »

I've been working on a Five Organs model for a while, following a clue by Bruce in the Wu Xing topic on Antiquatis. I was planning to start a "five organs topic" when i finish a RS model(still a lot to learn), but i find something very interesting.
The TCM academy recognize ☵ as an abstraction of kidney and ☲ as heart, which is corresponded to liquid and plasma state, where kidney and heart is reciprocally related. But it may not be the precise abstraction. What they've missed is the abstraction of liver. What i find is:
☶+☴+☳+☱=liver.
The other organs is composed of one trigram of itself and one of liver. For example it may be:
☵+☴=kidney
☲+☳=heart
☷+☶=spleen
☰+☱=lung
I'm not sure which trigram of liver should be added to another organ. Now the relationship between these organs are clarified. It makes a lot of sense why the soul is in the liver by TCM theory. It turns out the liver is the one that links the others, the one that act like a tunnel. If you spilit the left and right trigrams of each organ by the "+", the left is material/corporal body and the right is spirital/cosmic body ,with your mind/conciousness, you get a mind/body/spirit complex, and it's no more than a living alchemy system.
The sequence of states of matter generated by heat is solid→liquid→gas→plasma(or vapor), but it is not the case in a living system. Kidney/heart are reciprocally related, spleen/lung are reciprocally related, which means liquid and plasma is reciprocally related; solid and gas is reciprocally related. Material solid is cosmic gas and material liquid is cosmic plasma. ☶, ☴, ☳, ☱ are some kind of intermediate states filling the gaps. Obviously the eight trigrams are corresponded to Chakras. Perhaps the so called "density" is actually states of matter and states of matter is determined by density.
Consider the generating sequence of Wu Xing, the sequence of states of matter in living system is:
Earth/solid→Metal/gas→Water/liquid→Wood→Fire/plasma→Earth, which finish the circle.
But something should be added into the circle, that is:
Earth/solid→intermediate state→Metal/gas→intermediate state→Water/liquid→intermediate state→Fire/plasma→intermediate state→Earth.
I'm not an expert of alchemy, but it's obvious why a 5th element is so important. The the states of matter created by vibration is not follow the sequence as heating but follow the sequence of wu xing. These findings have several consequencies in TCM application. The most important one is that you have always to fix the liver first once it is affected, the Jue Yin disease which is the most confusing one in Classic Formula, but not in the scope of this topic.
The second things is that human body is always towards healing.The only way to supplement the body is to eat, enhancing the gastrointestinal system, because it is the start of matter transforming, the solid. So what exactly pushes the coversion of matters? The answer is "qi" (or chi). Though i know it is a bioenergy, i can't descibe it physically. By guessing, 1D electric potiental pushes a point, 2D magnetic potential pushes a surface, 3D gravitational potential pushes a volume, then 3D+ potential pushes "qi". It is the rotation of the galaxy, the solar system, earth itself create this 3D+ potential, creating a rhythm of pushing "qi" flow through the meridian sequentially and then cause the transformation of matters in organs. You control the Five Organs, you control the health of the body, do not need anything else. Nothing can suplement the body only if the body lack of specific chemical ingredients.

Once a meridian is blocked by virus for instance, you use a herbal composition to create a 3D+ potential pushing through the targeting meridian, or reciprocally use electromagnetism to push it reversely. Theoretically, one can mimic the effect of herbal composition if the EM can be targeting a specific meridian, and of course have to find a way to diagnosis which meridian is bolocked. TCM has approaches to diagnosis by symptoms and use the Classic Formula to push the meridian without knowing the mechanism.
Infection by material microorganisms, it is the time you are looking for western medicines. Now you know why western medicine is so incapable against virus. You don't need to kill, it is not alive, all you need to do is to excrete it. If you were go to a med school, you know there are so many chronic diseases including cancer are related to virus. They ARE virus infection in TCM. Herbal composition is a weapon against virus and antibiotics is a powerful one against material microorganisms infection. Sometimes both of them should be used. How can we use combination of wu xing attributes to mimic a 3D+ potential is a problem to be solved.
Energy releasing is following the heating sequence, the way our body heating itself. Kidney is the power source of cosmic body and heart is the power source of corporal body, always plasma to solid, making perfect sense in TCM application.
A solid alien spaceship may be gaseous by our perspective ;)
Larson start RS from the progression of natural reference system, the unit motion. I think the unit motion is already a split of nothing into Yin/Yang(Taoism version of creation). The progress of natural reference system and the black hole might be reciprocally related, they are ⚏ and ⚌, both of which are unity. ⚍ polar space/time, ⚎ polar time/space. They are more than sectors, they are matters in conventional science sense. The ⚌ state of unity is the solid state by our perspective, but it is not all solid states, it is crystallized solid state. Displacement from unity is the process of creating the trigrams.
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Re: Relationship between the Five Organs, Trigrams and states of matter

Post by Sun »

Consider mercury in the overcoming sequency(used by alchemy), a cosmic fire state, with gold next to it, overcoming cosmic metal state which is a solid state in material, only one state distance from gold, the perfect condidate for alchemy. It is very possible that altering the state of matter by vibration also alters its atomic number. Can RS provides a theoretical prediction?
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Re: Relationship between the Five Organs, Trigrams and states of matter

Post by bperet »

This is a fascinating post... would love to see Zuoqian comment on it.

This is an interesting relation:
⚌ → ⚎ | ⚍ ← ⚏

Mathematically, we would have "real" (linear), "complex" (linear + angular) on one side, a unit speed barrier (causing inversion) the the mirror image on the other (right-to-left) being "inverse real" (imaginary or angular) and "inverse complex" (angular + linear). This exactly mimics the programming structure I ended up using to model RS relationships in 1D (Larson/Nehru concept of 0-1-∞).

The "greater" attribute would indicate normal space/time, whereas the "lesser" would be Larson's concept of "equivalent" space/time (the reciprocal conjugate). "Greater space" would be the conventional concept of space, "Lesser space" is Larson's "equivalent space" and the flip side, "lesser time" would be "equivalent time" and "greater time" would be coordinate time. Same concepts.

But this is a 1D system. If we take it to 3D, this would become the 八卦 Bāguà, which is expressive of ONE sector. The life unit, a composite of BOTH sectors, could then be expressed as hexagram, 卦. This relation probably explains why it connects so well with living organisms.

Take, for example, hexagram #1, ☰/☰, 乾 (qián, force), linear pushes in both space and time, the mechanical strain that we commonly refer to as force. We know from conventional science that the inverse to a force is a field, an "invisible force," and if we take the inverse hexagram, ☷/☷, we get hexagram #2, 坤 (kūn, field). This pattern seems to hold true across the hexagram table, when you consider the meanings of the terms used to describe the relations.

You could treat the 64 combinations as analogous to "states of matter" for living organisms, covering both the normal and equivalent relationships between space and time. These "living states" may equate to a type of "emotional state" (e-motion-al) that each of the organs could express. It is common knowledge that emotions relate to organs, "heartache," "liver playing you up," etc.

This would also indicate that there is some kind of reciprocal correspondence between material organs (body) and cosmic organs (soul), as you are indicating with the heart-kidney structure, though I do not yet understand why it isn't a direct mapping, m-heart to c-heart, for example.

Something I did notice that was missing from the 5-organ system was the body's single, largest organ--the skin. On the body, skin is distributed across the organism, forming a concept analogous to the unit boundary. If the mapping of organs is not direct, but reciprocal, than the skin would map to something localized and small in the cosmic body, though I would not know what.

You are definitely on to a new understanding of an ancient system here... looking forward to its development.

Something else you may want to consider... years ago I met one K. Williams that had drafted a book on "cosmic viruses"--since anything that can happen in space, can also happen in time. I thought it was brilliant. Don't know if she ever published it, though. But the idea is valid... what happens when the soul encounters some kind of "cosmic pathogen," like an antimatter virus, and gets a "cold?" I think these ancient systems, like TCM and Ayurveda address these concepts, but actuality of what is going on has been lost over the centuries. Perhaps it is something you can rediscover?
Sun wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:59 am It is very possible that altering the state of matter by vibration also alters its atomic number. Can RS provides a theoretical prediction?
In order to change atomic number, one would have to increase or decrease the angular velocity of the electric or magnetic rotating system--in other words, vibration would have to be converted into rotation. Curiously enough, this is exactly what Keely did with his dynasphere stuff--took vibrating rods and converted it into rotational torque. Gopi has been researching this recently, based on pipe organ analysis, so he may have some comments.

We do know from basic math that a rotation breaks down into two waves, orthogonal to each other: the sine and cosine waves (same wave structure, just 90° out of phase). So for vibration to alter the speed of atomic rotation, it would seem logical to do the opposite--transmit two pressure waves that are orthogonal to each other and 90° out of phase, such that it is done intra-atomically (pressure is normally inter-atomic), and it should transmute the material either upward (faster) or downward (slower) on the Periodic Table.
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Re: Relationship between the Five Organs, Trigrams and states of matter

Post by Sun »

I do not yet understand why it isn't a direct mapping, m-heart to c-heart, for example.
You're right, not reciprocal. It's a direct mapping!
But, am i getting it right that it is like aggregate matter in space scattering in time? Then the states of matter i mentioned is not a reciprocal relation, it is direct mapping, solid mapping gas, liquid mapping plasma.
Something I did notice that was missing from the 5-organ system was the body's single, largest organ--the skin.
There are other systems, the six hollow organs for instance. They are appendixes of Five Organs. Skin is a appendix to lung. The nervous system is the one taking orders from mind but not the mind itself. Mind is in the heart in TCM. I don't know why. You need the Five Organs to ingest and the appendixes to excrete. Five Organs are connected with 3 Yin meridians, six hollow organs are connected with 3 Yang meridians. Classic Formulas are targeting these meridians. The Classic Formulas actually come from Taoism! Formulas after Song(宋) dynasty had lost these information, perhaps due to a massive invasion during that time. The Yin/Yang pairs of meridians are Shao-yin/Tai-yang, Tai-yin/Yang-ming, Jue-Yin/Shao-yang. I think these pairs are the three doshas in Indo-Tibetan approaches. It is Shao-yin connects kidney and heart, Tai-yin connects spleen and lung, Jue-yin connects m-liver and c-liver.
These "living states" may equate to a type of "emotional state" (e-motion-al) that each of the organs could express.
They are affected by emotions. Emotions are functions of mind, should be banlanced, which is a part of taoism cultivation. However, diseases affect 5-organs do have impacts on you. For example, impairment of kidney, lost ambitious; impairment of liver, bad temper; impairment of spleen, sometime you may find yourself read a sentence several times but still can't understand what it says, cognitive function impaired.
what happens when the soul encounters some kind of "cosmic pathogen," like an antimatter virus, and gets a "cold?"
I haven't read Larson's beyond space and time yet, in which he mentioned virus i remember.
In my opinion and by my limited clinical experience, virus are cosmic pathogens and they do cause "cold". That's why most TCM herb targeting meridians, the cosmic body, is "hot". Further, virus attatch meridians, transfering itself by meridians, from Yang to Yin, from Tai-yin to Shao-yin, to Jue-yin. Once the liver is affected, it becomes a tough situation. The "hot" herb would overheat the corporal body causing inflammation and the "cold" herb would overcool the cosmic body causing diarrhoea for instance, "cold" and "hot" simutanously, which is commonly seen on cancer, chronic HBV infection, hyperthyroidism et al. Anticancer drugs are extremely "cold", definitely a dead end.
That's why western medicine can't deal with virus and most western medicines are "cold". Modern industrial processing exacerbates this situation, sugar and salt lost their cystallized structure which is "hot" in nature. "catch a cold", what will a doctor tell you to do? Technically viruses are not pathogens, they are thought forms created by collective conciousness, unbalanced emotions and minds. But a virus has DNA or RNA like bacteria, there are solid evidences. I have not yet figured out why they exhibit cosmic behaviour. Perhaps some of them are material and some of them are cosmic because of their size? I have not figured out what exactly is the function of DNA/RNA either. Virus infection can persist for a very long time. Theoretically, disease cause by virus will sustain after death.

The mercury propulsion system, Vimana, any information about turning mercury to gold in this system?
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Re: Relationship between the Five Organs, Trigrams and states of matter

Post by bperet »

Sun wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:32 pm There are other systems, the six hollow organs for instance. They are appendixes of Five Organs. Skin is a appendix to lung. The nervous system is the one taking orders from mind but not the mind itself. Mind is in the heart in TCM. I don't know why. You need the Five Organs to ingest and the appendixes to excrete. Five Organs are connected with 3 Yin meridians, six hollow organs are connected with 3 Yang meridians.
Would you have a good diagram of these relationships?
Sun wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:32 pm They are affected by emotions. Emotions are functions of mind, should be banlanced, which is a part of taoism cultivation.
Knowing of the conjugate relation between the body/corpus and soul/anima, the expression of emotion may give a clue as to how the soul is operating.

I have noticed that the negative emotions are compressive (inward in space), that causes a tightening of the body. Anger--clench the fists, tighten them up. Fear, curl up into a little ball. This seems to be "rotationally inward" in space, therefore would be "linearly outward" in time.

To find an analogy, we can flip... look for something that is "linearly outward" in space, which would cause a corresponding tightening/rolling up of the temporal/soul organs. To me, the most obvious is injury--when you cut yourself, the wound opens up perpendicular to the incision. Physical injury would cause a rotational implosion in the soul. The soul would compensate by a rotational explosion of energy, which would then translate to a linear implosion response in the body--you try to close the wound. (If this is correct, then consider what surgery is doing to the soul... particularly its overuse.)

You can flip that around to see what happens if a soul gets "physically" injured in the cosmic sector... we get a rotational implosion in space--an emotional tightening. It may be that when people get angry with each other, they souls are having a fist-fight.

The positive emotions are the flip side, linearly inward in space--you want to draw the things you love closer to you. That would be rotationally outward in the soul, which is probably analogous to the concept of reconciliation of differences.

Microorganisms appear to be the biological analog to "particles" and viral infection would be analogous to "radioactivity." Just as radiation alters molecules by modifying space-time displacements, viruses alter cells by modifying DNA with RNA. I would not think that cosmic microorganisms would be "emotional," directly--only indirectly from cell damage. That would put their disruptive behavior in the bioenergy system.

We can also look to the basic geometric duality of conjugate systems for more information. In a 3D system, points and planes are dualized, yet the line is dual to itself. Physical organs would correspond to points, cosmic organs the planes, which we would observe as organs affecting each other like a magnetic field. Lines, however, are self-dual--a line remains a line. Meridians are a linear distribution network, so they would be dimensionally different than the energy of organs and why I consider the meridian network to be operating in the 3-x, ultra-high speed range. On the material side, we would see bioenergy as linearly inward. On the cosmic, linearly outward. Bioenergy travel through the meridian system would therefore be expansive and compressive--pushing apart or pulling together, like rubber bands, rather than "transporting" energy as the nerve system does.

Just some thoughts.
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Re: Relationship between the Five Organs, Trigrams and states of matter

Post by zuoqian »

Sun wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:28 am ☶+☴+☳+☱=liver.
I hope to know more about this finding, thanks. In public theory, only ☳=liver, and ☶=stomach, ☴=gall, ☱lung.
Sun wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:28 am It makes a lot of sense why the soul is in the liver by TCM theory.
In TCM theory there are three 魂 in the liver and seven 魄 in the lung, and the more important 神 is in the heart, why not soul=神 instead, or 神/魂/魄 are all cosmic organs of the soul?
Sun wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:28 am Kidney is the power source of cosmic body and heart is the power source of corporal body,
In TCM kidney contains 相火 and heart contains 君火, life begins from kidney (the fusion of sperm and egg) and ends from heart (stop beating), how about after life?
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The lifespan of the soul

Post by bperet »

zuoqian wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:21 am In TCM theory there are three 魂 in the liver and seven 魄 in the lung, and the more important 神 is in the heart, why not soul=神 instead, or 神/魂/魄 are all cosmic organs of the soul?
Having some translation problems...

魂 = soul, ML. anima mea, my soul.
魄 = soul, ML. anima mea, my soul.
神 = God, ML. Deus, God.
相火 = fire, ML. in igne, within fire.
君火 = Source of vitality, ML. jun ignis, lesser fire.

Can you clarify?
zuoqian wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:21 am In TCM kidney contains 相火 and heart contains 君火, life begins from kidney (the fusion of sperm and egg) and ends from heart (stop beating), how about after life?
The nature of nonlocality of the soul would infer that it is connected to multiple bodily incarnations, just as the body can connect to multiple "complexes" (souls) within the psyche. It is a many-to-many relationship across the material and cosmic sectors. The body lifespan is based on clock time; the soul lifespan would therefore be based on clock space, what we may perceive as distance (rather than duration). So the soul would correlate to "where you were born" and "where you die," rather than clock times.

I am not sure how that would connect to TCM concepts, but it may explain astrology--which is based not only on when you were born, but where. Though "where you die" is not considered, probably because they cannot sell you a reading after you are dead. :D
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Re: Relationship between the Five Organs, Trigrams and states of matter

Post by Sun »

Still trying to find a good diagram. @Bruce @Zuoqian, thanks for both of you. Obviously there are more things to be clarified. The most confusing thing for me is what's different between ☱ and ☴, ☶ and ☳, what is the orientation means. I think the trigram is more than a symbol, it's a octal number system with dimensional information. Obviously bagua parallels quaternion, and the 64 gua(64卦) parallels octonion.
21 :⚊, ⚋
22: ⚌, ⚏, ⚍, ⚎
23: ...
life unit: combining material and cosmic, then 8×8=64 combinations.
But, what is this means? What is the orientation means in RS?
Respond to @Zuoqian:
In public theory, only ☳=liver, and ☶=stomach, ☴=gall, ☱lung
I think the public theory has not yet recognized an organ must be represented by two trigrams, a life unit. There must be two trigrams for m-liver, another two for c-liver, and the liver is mapping itself. ☳ and ☴ is wood in Wuxing, so one of the liver must be ☳+☴, and the other one must be ☶+☱. As you noticed, these four trigrams has no symetry in itself, they don't match the states of matters in material sector then must be cosmic states of matter, which makes the liver much more like a container of cosmic matters. That is my logic why 魂 = soul. Have no idea what is 魄. 志, (determination of a soldier) which i would translate to "ambition" is in kidney, and we do find people with Shao-yin disease lost their ambitions from time to time, for example the nephrotic syndrome. If you noticed, i am referring to the TCM approach during the Han, Tang dynasty, especially the Shang-Han-Lun(伤寒论) approach. The book Shang-Han-Lun is the ancestor of formulas. Formulas after that are of completely different approaches. These findinds leads to Yang/Yin paired formulas for c-organ and m-organ, 当归四逆汤/乌梅丸 for liver, 真武汤/肾气丸 for kidney(Bruce might have some problem of his c-kidney), 四逆汤/炙甘草汤 for heart, 理中丸/"to eat" for spleen(hypercholesteremia, hyperlipemia for c-spleen problem, anemia for m-spleen problem), lung is an organ cannot be treated directly. The toxic 四逆汤 which is forbidden is the one should be used for treating acute heart failure(c-heart failure leading to death), but is not in the scope of this topic.
Clinical practice demontrates that you have to fix the c-organ before fixing m-organ, and damages seem from m-organ to c-organ, making any sense by RS @Bruce?
But it is reversed for liver, m-liver before c-liver(乌梅丸 of acid before 当归四逆汤 of pungent), and most of the time you don't have to worry about the c-liver, OR i have reversed the Formulas for liver. What's your opinon @Zuoqian?
Stomach and gall are linked to Yang meridians, can be assigned to another 8 trigrams. Yin/Yang meridians are inward/outward relationship, and they are paired. For example, progressing outward from Shao-yin meridian you reach Tai-yang meridian. Yang/Yin meridians plus mind inside them parallels 3 layers of human body in Ayurveda. Pathogens in Yin meridians must be driven to Yang meridians for excretion(like virus), sometimes it is from Shao-yin to Tai-yin to Yang meridians, sometimes it is from Shao-yin to Tai-yang directly for example. So, a new loop is started for Yang meridians linked organs.
神=god, infinite intelligent referred by Ra. Mind is your conscious mind, 神 is an abstracted mind, like the left and right brain. The left brain operates by logic, and the right one operates by intuition.
In TCM kidney contains 相火 and heart contains 君火, life begins from kidney (the fusion of sperm and egg) and ends from heart (stop beating), how about after life?
君火=light, 相火=heat. Converting states of matter from plasma to solid releases heat. It is kidney heating cosmic body and heart heating corporal body. Fusion of sperm and egg is a start of life, but it is only a life form of organic life. I'm not sure what is lost after death. Because of the Yang/Yin meridians system, it seems to me the human body have two layers of life unit, a 6D/6D structure, two two-trigrams systems.
The pericardium in the following pic is actually c-liver i think, wrapping the heart. TCM academy can't find where is 三焦(Triple warmer). How can they find a cosmic organ:)?The points on the surface of body are projections of meridians i suppose, the foot and hand meridians are connected inside the body. That's why we use only 6 meridians(3 Yin, 3 Yang) for diagnosis and treatment.
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Re: The lifespan of the soul

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bperet wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:12 pm 魂 = soul, ML. anima mea, my soul.
魄 = soul, ML. anima mea, my soul.
神 = God, ML. Deus, God.
相火 = fire, ML. in igne, within fire.
君火 = Source of vitality, ML. jun ignis, lesser fire.

Can you clarify?
TCM sees the body is isomorphic to a kingdom, so as the soul. If we see the soul as a company, 神(shen in jing/qi/shen, the true self, not god but spirit) would be the CEO, his home is heart and his office is brain, 魂(hun) and 魄(po) are managers of different departments(organs). This is just my preliminary thought as I also lacks deeper understanding, please also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shen_%28C ... eligion%29 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hun_and_po.
Sun wrote: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:24 pm 君火=light, 相火=heat.
I thinks Sun's explanation is quite right. The theory of 火(fire) in TCM is also a chaos. When searching for explanations I find my description has a mistake: 相火 is not the fire in kidney but the fire in 三焦(three warmers), and the fire in kidney is the fire of MingMen and is more innate than 君火 and 相火.

To Sun:
You know the five organs in TCM are not equal to the anatomic organs of west, for example the TCM's liver is in the left side of body, why we could not think the five organs in TCM are just the c-organs of man and meridians are just c-blood vessels? Have you read 道医学 of 熊春锦? It is said to contain esoteric information inside Taoist. I have the book but can not verify the new age style information.

In general, I doubt if life phenomenons are beyond the physics theory of RS, for besides the physics universe there at least also exist a information universe and a meaning/purpose/object universe, and the synchronicity law of I ching can not fit in a logic theory framework. Mind/logic/theory are all Yang, perhaps to understand Yin we should try another path via direct experience by methods such as qigong or yoga. It is very interesting that Zen using unlogical Kōan to compress the mind to cross the unit boundary to get awakening.
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Re: Relationship between the Five Organs, Trigrams and states of matter

Post by Sun »

five organs in TCM are not equal to the anatomic organs of west
Yes, of course. Even approaches from Shang-Han-Lun(Classic Formulas,经方) have no relation to the five-organs theory. Five-organs theory is the cornerstone of Contemporary Formulas(时方). What is the relationship between five-organs, Wuxing and meridians, why the Classic Formulas dealing with meridians can fix the organs, how to use these findings to clarify the mechanism of Classic Formulas, is what i'm trying to figure out in this topic. The ultimate goal is to formulate MY Classic Formulas, using Wuxing, color and tastes.
why we could not think the five organs in TCM are just the c-organs
All of the ancient books are written from a time perspective. Have no idea why. But the anatomic organs do related to organs of TCM, since there are m-organs. Principle is the same from material to cosmic, should be very simple for all levels. Besides, there are febrile diseases(温病), so you can't just ignore the m-organs or the anatomy body. m/c-blood vessel is 营卫 system targeted by 桂枝汤. Shang-Han-Lun is a powerful weapon once you learn its little trick that it used the meta-physical attributes of herbs. However, medicine is not the difficult part. You keep drugging patients, they keep distorting theirselves. Long talking... When pathogens have get into the Yin meridians, what TCM can do is to keep the body toward healing just for a while, opening a window for one to heal by oneself. If you have read Zhuang Zi, you might lose interest in esoteric information, another long talking... i don't know about 道医 or 熊春锦.
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