Discussion of the astronomical and cosmological aspects of a universe of motion.
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Post by Gopi » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:20 am

Hey folks,

Came across some interesting data on redshifts, far more than what Larson or Halton Arp had at their time, which shows all the problems with the whole idea of redshift as receding velocity or distance marker.

1. Something called the "Solar Limb" redshift.

This thing has been an "anomaly" for 75 years. Basically: "After the red/blue-shift due to our Sun's rotation is subtracted from the data, there remains a puzzling center-to-limb redshift which increases by a 3:1 ratio at the limb." So there is an extra component, which theorists are still doing all sorts of gymnastics to get around. Kind of embarrassing if redshift is assumed to be things "moving away".

2. K-effect of blue and white stars.

Apparently, the blue and white stars (O and B) have a redshift excess, everywhere in the sky. So according to the "speed of recession" idea, it is as if the blue and white (older in the RS) stars have decided to escape away radially.

3. Binary star anomaly.

This is the best of the lot. Binary stars were the original reason for theorizing about the Doppler effect by Doppler. In simple terms, when two stars are revolving around each other, one comes towards us and one goes away, so one is blue shifted and the other is redshifted. The average shift for any one star is supposed to be equal to the other's, since on the whole the two are moving away together at whatever speed they have, right? Wrong. Take a look:
Binary star redshift.png
Binary star redshift.png (66.29 KiB) Viewed 273 times
The averages of the two stars are different! One is +56, another is -34. Again, by the definition of recession, that means EVERY binary pair is tearing itself apart. Hm.

4. Quantized redshift.

This one pretty much says it all. The trouble is the same one they encountered with the pulsar.

I think there could be a way of utilizing the redshift differences to tell clearly about motion in the 2nd and 3rd dimension respectively. Brings a host of these problems into relief.

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Re: Redshift riddles

Post by Djchrismac » Tue Apr 02, 2019 2:17 pm

Thanks Gopi, fascinating info and it sent me off to read up a bit more about redshift. I found the following which I think you will like although I suspect you may have read it already:

Red Shift Riddles

A brief summary is that:
Several well-studied galaxies, including M51 and NGC 2903, exhibited two distinct redshifts. Velocity breaks, or discontinuities, occurred at the nuclei of these galaxies. Even more fascinating was the observation that the jump in redshift between the spiral arms always tended to be around 72 kilometers per second, no matter which galaxy was considered. Later studies indicated that velocity breaks could also occur at intervals that were 1/2, 1/3, or 1/6 of the original 72 km per second value.

Dwarf irregular galaxies are low-mass systems that have a significant fraction of their mass tied up in neutral hydrogen gas. They have little organized internal or rotational motion and so present few complications in the interpretation of their redshifts. In these modest collections of stars we might expect any underlying quantum rules to be the least complex. Early 20th century physicists chose a similar approach when they began their studies of atomic structure; they first looked at hydrogen, the simplest atom.

The analysis of dwarf irregulars was revised and improved when an extensive 21-cm redshift survey of dwarf galaxies was published by J. Richard Fisher and R. Brent Tully. Once the velocity of the solar system was accounted for, the irregulars in the Fisher-Tully Catalogue displayed an extraordinary clumping of redshifts. Instead of spreading smoothly over a range of values, the redshifts appeared to fall into discrete bins separated by intervals of 24 km per second, just 1/3 of the original 72 km per second interval. The Fisher-Tully redshifts are accurate to about 5 km per second. At this small level of uncertainty the likelihood that such clumping would randomly occur is just a few parts in 100,000.

Large-scale redshift quantization needed to be confirmed by analyzing redshifts of an entirely different class of objects. Galaxies in the Fisher-Tully catalogue that showed large amounts of rotation and interval motion (the opposite extreme from the dwarf irregulars) were studied.

Remarkably, using the same solar-motion correction as before, the galaxies' redshifts again bunched around certain specific values. But this time the favored redshifts were separated by exactly 1/2 of the basic 72 km per second interval. This is clearly evident. Even allowing for this change to a 36 km per second interval, the chance of accidentally producing such a preference is less than 4 in 1000. It is therefore concluded that at least some classes of galaxy redshifts are quantized in steps that are simple fractions of 72 km per second.

Current cosmological models cannot explain this grouping of galaxy redshifts around discrete values across the breadth of the universe. As further data are amassed the discrepancies from the conventional picture will only worsen. If so, dramatic changes in our concepts of large-scale gravitation, the origin and "evolution" of galaxies, and the entire formulation of cosmology would be required.
If only there was some other theory that could provide a new model of large-scale gravitation or explain the origin and evolution of galaxies... :D

So what do you think redshift is really telling us, is it something to do with the shear between time and space caused by the spiral rotation of solar systems? It could be as simple as them having the scale wrong and still thinking solar systems close by are galaxies far far away means they are looking at any other explanation to get around an incorrect assumption about scale.

It's very intriguing that the redshifts are quantized in steps that are simple fractions of 72km per second. That got me wondering if 72 is a number of substance and it turns out yes very much so! I've highlighted and noted against some interesting ones:
In mathematics

* Seventy-two is the sum of four consecutive primes (13 + 17 + 19 + 23), as well as the sum of six consecutive primes (5 + 7 + 11 + 13 + 17 + 19). The product of 8 and 9, 72 is a pronic number.

*The sum of Euler's totient function φ(x) over the first fifteen integers is 72. There are 17 solutions to the equation φ(x) = 72, more than any integer below 72, making it a highly totient number.

* 72 is the smallest number whose fifth power is the sum of five smaller fifth powers: 195 + 435 + 465 + 475 + 675 = 725.

*The sum of the eighth row of Lozanić's triangle is 72.

*In a plane, the exterior angles of a regular pentagon measure 72 degrees each.

*In base 10, the number 72 is a Harshad number.

In science

* The atomic number of hafnium

* In degrees Fahrenheit considered to be room temperature.

In astronomy

* Messier object M72, a magnitude 10.0 globular cluster in the constellation Aquarius.

* The New General Catalogue object NGC 72, a magnitude 13.5 barred spiral galaxy in the constellation Andromeda.

* The precession of equinoxes traces out a pair of cones joined at their apices in a cycle of approximately 26,000 years, that is 1 degree every 72 years (approximation to the nearmost integer). - might redshift have something to do with precession following the great catastrophe that added 5 days to our orbit and set the planet spinning like a top?

In religion - this is where it gets very interesting!

* The number of languages spoken at the Tower of Babylon, according to later tradition.
* The conventional number of scholars translating the Septuagint, according to the legendary account in the "Letter of Aristeas".
* The conventional number of disciples sent forth by Jesus in Luke 10 in some manuscripts (seventy in others).
* The number of names of God, according to Kabbalah (see names of God in Judaism).
* The Shemhamphorasch related to the number of the names of God.
* The total number of books in the Bible in the Catholic version if the Book of Lamentations is considered part of the Book of Jeremiah.
* The current distribution of the Book of Revelation is 22 chapters, adopted since the 13th century, but the oldest known division of the text is that of the Greek commentator Andrew of Cesary (6th century) in 72 chapters.
* The number of people martyred along with Imam Hussain at the Battle of Karbala.
* The number of houri each Muslim martyr (or every Muslim male, according to some ahadith) shall receive as companions in Paradise.
* The degrees of the Jacob's Ladder were to the number of 72, according to the Zohar.
* The 72 disciples of Confucius who mastered his teachings (also given as 77).
* Mahavira, the twenty-fourth and last tirthankara of Jainism, is said to have attained nirvana after his physical death at the age of 72.
* Thoth, in an Egyptian creation myth, wins a 72nd of each day of the year from the Moon in a game of draughts, as a favour to Nut, the Sky Goddess. He uses these portions to make the five intercalary days on which the remaining Gods and Goddesses are born.
* The good god Osiris was enclosed in a coffin by 72 evil disciples and accomplices of Set.
* At the age of the puberty, the young Parsee received the investiture of the sacred cord Kucti made of 72 linens in symbol of the community.
* In Cao Đài, the number of planets between hell and heaven.
* There are 72 stupas which comprise Borobudur, the world's largest Buddhist temple.
* 72 major temples have been found at Angkor, seat of the ancient Khmer Empire.
* In Islam, 72 is the number of sects or denominations that are doomed to Hell, according to Hadith (Sayings of prophet Muhammad).
* The number of demons sealed away by King Solomon with The Lesser Key of Solomon.
The number 72 is surprisingly prevalent in religion, there has to be a clue there. I can't help thinking that ancient science is encoded in the ancient texts, for example when it comes to the 72 demons:
The demons are described as being commanded by four kings of the cardinal directions: Amaymon (East), Corson (West), Ziminiar (North), and Gaap (South). A footnote in one variant edition instead lists them as Oriens or Uriens, Paymon or Paymonia, Ariton or Egyn, and Amaymon or Amaimon, alternatively known as Samael, Azazel, Azael, and Mahazael (purportedly their preferred rabbinic names).[10] Agrippa's Occult Philosophy lists the kings of the cardinal directions as Urieus (East), Amaymon (South), Paymon (West), and Egin (North); again providing the alternate names Samuel (i.e. Samael), Azazel, Azael, and Mahazuel. The Magical Calendar lists them as Bael, Moymon, Poymon, and Egin,[11][12] though Peterson notes that some variant editions instead list '"Asmodel in the East, Amaymon in the South, Paymon in the West, and Aegym in the North"; "Oriens, Paymon, Egyn, and Amaymon"; or "Amodeo [sic] (king of the East), Paymon (king of the West), Egion (king of the North), and Maimon.
I think of this:
55649731_1858233674281738_55981269455994880_n.png (36.24 KiB) Viewed 253 times

This website has some free software on Redshifts, Classifications and Velocity Dispersions, it might be worth checking out although again it is configured for Star, Galaxy and QSO so may need some tweaking if at all possible.

Funnily enough the webpage above on red shift riddles is taken from this resource: ... index.html

There are a good frew topics in there that most of us are researching at present.

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