Re: Visualization of birotation
Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:14 am
Yes, but there would also be a pattern to the spacing that repeated.SoverT wrote:Such that, in the coiled spring analogy, the spirals would appear to be unevenly spaced?
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Yes, but there would also be a pattern to the spacing that repeated.SoverT wrote:Such that, in the coiled spring analogy, the spirals would appear to be unevenly spaced?
Yes, that's obvious, but I was not asking about a relation between two motions like a/b ÷ c/d.bperet wrote: ...you can create a displacement from any reference speed.
I don't understand how that could be written about my definition of an unoriented unit of motion (s/t), since it does not include any statements, that endow these chunks of space and time with inherent locations and/or directions (like LST does)..bperet wrote:Because you then have a "Universe of Matter" (conventional science) not a "Universe of Motion" (Reciprocal System).Horace wrote:What's wrong with misunderstanding a unit of motion as one chunk of space in association with one chunk of time ?
Yes, the unit speed is the "natural datum" , the natural condition of rest in the unverse, but this doesn't mean that it does not exist.bperet wrote:In my understanding, no, because "unit speed" is the natural datum--the reference of how we measure motion. It is the "nothing" from which we measure...Horace wrote:Doesn't unit speed constitute motion already? (even if it does not form particles...)
Yes, every deviation from unit speed exhibits that duality when viewed from the unit speed vantage. But I still fail to see why one undeviated motion is not motion.bperet wrote: Also, every displacement creates two units of motion, 1/n and n/1... 1/1 does not do that.
Actually, a relation between any two non-identical motions will exhibit this effect.bperet wrote: In order for unit speed to be a "motion," you have to switch from the natural reference system to a coordinate one with a zero datum--
...but both of these points attempt a relation between two motions. I was not asking about such relation.bperet wrote: To summarize unit speed:
- In the unity-based, natural reference system, it is the datum of reference and therefore "not motion."
- In the zero-based, coordinate reference system, it is a motion moving at unit speed.
Why such a difference?bperet wrote: This does not occur with particles and atoms, but does with molecules (harmonic interaction).
The "point of awareness" or stationary frame of reference that you've mentioned is also created by a second motion.so it is besides the scope of my question.JoeyV wrote: The solution to this requires a change in frame of reference. From the '0' datum of perspective held by an individual in either sector (the point of awareness.. "You are here"),...
I understand that quite well, but this is still a relation between two motions - the motion of the observer on the motion of the photon. I also understand very well, that the motion of the observer can be arbitrarily attributed to the motion of the observee.JoeyV wrote: ...unit speed is perceived as the " speed of motion" at which light appears to move. This doesn't necessarily mean that light is actually "moving" at this perceived speed. It is the observation of one's own displacement from Unity that gives it, unit speed, the appearance of motion.
That too, is a relation between two motions.JoeyV wrote: Consider Einstein's train imagery. If you're moving at the same speed of a train, it won't appear to be moving.
Why unoriented?Horace wrote:I fathom motion as an unoriented ratio of space magnitude to time magnitude.
This reads to me to be an implication of the idea that there can be a unit of space divorced from a unit of time. Its my understanding that they can't be divorced in this way. Saying you have a 'something' of space and a 'something' of time looks like the content/container viewpoint where your chunks are the content and motion is the container. A unit of space can only be discussed as being the reciprocal aspect to time as the constituent aspects of motion. I see motion as being a relationship between those two aspect . Where the equation of motion = a ratio (relationship) between space and time, you cannot have any one of these three things (motion, space, or time) without the other two. To attempt to discuss any of these without giving attention to the other two aspects is conceptual fallacy.These magnitudes are the "chunks", that I referred to when I wrote, that I conceptualize a unit of motion as one chunk of space in association with one chunk of time.
Yes. Given the postulation of discrete units of motion we can look at any scale and see a singular unit of motion. A star, planet, person, cell, atom... all singular discrete units of motion. I think what you might be looking for is a singular constituent building block a motion-thing that is antithetical to a universe of motion.1) Do you think that one unit of motion exists or not? If "yes" then how would you define it?
Where motion is a relationship between the reciprocal aspects of space and time, yes to both.2) Do you think that motion can exist as one unit or as a series of units of motion, or both?
I think that they can be disjoint, but there's also a third option that was left out. Consider atomic and molecular bonding. The gravitational limits of two separate units of motion interpenetrate into the spheres of each other creating a series of sorts, but its not a situation where one begins where the other one ends.3) If you think that motion can consist of a series of units, then do you think that these units are disjoint or linked by the mandatory spatial and temporal continuity requirement? (...that one begins where the other has ended)
Because a simple ratio does not have a defined direction, when it is not related to a second ratio that assumes the role of a datum.JoeyV wrote:Why unoriented?Horace wrote:I fathom motion as an unoriented ratio of space magnitude to time magnitude.
How could you read it like that after I used the phrase "in association with" ?JoeyV wrote:This reads to me to be an implication of the idea that there can be a unit of space divorced from a unit of time.Horace wrote:These magnitudes are the "chunks", that I referred to when I wrote, that I conceptualize a unit of motion as one chunk of space in association with one chunk of time.
It is my understanding also.Horace wrote: Its my understanding that they can't be divorced in this way.
Yes, it would be if I meant that, buy I was referring only to a change of space relative to the change of time Δs/Δt.JoeyV wrote: Saying you have a 'something' of space and a 'something' of time looks like the content/container viewpoint where your chunks are the content and motion is the container.
So do I and I never consider them in separation.JoeyV wrote: A unit of space can only be discussed as being the reciprocal aspect to time as the constituent aspects of motion. I see motion as being a relationship between those two aspect .
And I wholeheartedly agree that that would be a conceptual fallacy and I am totally committed against it.JoeyV wrote: Where the equation of motion = a ratio (relationship) between space and time, you cannot have any one of these three things (motion, space, or time) without the other two. To attempt to discuss any of these without giving attention to the other two aspects is conceptual fallacy.
Oversight on my part. I believe I see your point and I'm in no position to resolve it since my understanding is more conceptual than others who have hammered out the details to a much more significant degree than has my mind. Carry on.Horace wrote:How could you read it like that after I used the phrase "in association with" ?
I don't think there is much to resolve as I think that Bruce's conclusions are an extension of mine. I just start lower in the abstraction level (with individual ratios) and he likes to start higher in the abstraction (with related ratios or crossratios). He also develops it much furher beyond the basics than I do, but I think that I am more rigorous with the basics.JoeyV wrote: I believe I see your point and I'm in no position to resolve it since my understanding is more conceptual than others who have hammered out the details to a much more significant degree than has my mind. Carry on.
If I can comprehend what you are saying, I will include it. From what I see reading the conversation, there seems to be a terminology problem here, that stems from this concept:Horace wrote:If you understand my point you could help me to develop a better phraseology or notation, that would be clear to the average Joe and you and Bruce as well. Maybe even to such degree that he'd incorporate it the first chapters of his upcoming book/tutorial.
That is not what Larson's "unit of motion" is. I'm going to avoid the term in the book, altogether, because it implies you have "chunks" of something like Jan Sammer's kineton (a unit of motion). This is probably one of the biggest difficulties with understanding the RS--that "unit of motion" concept creates a bad connection in the 'ole brain, hooking it to the conventional understanding that space is a "thing" (a chunk). The reciprocal relation then extends that premise to "time," which is also chunked to make it a "thing" as well--the whole concept of space and time being simply aspects of motion--analogous to the numerator and denominator being the aspects of ratio--gets lost.Horace wrote:That is why I wrote that a a unit of motion is a chunk of space is in association with a chunk of time...as in a simple ratio Δs/Δt.